unpackingDS_podcast
Sonesh
PODCAST - Unpacking the digital shelf

Interview: Marketing Silos Must Fall, with Sonesh Shah, Vice President Marketing and Digital at Bosch Power Tools

To win on the digital shelf, brand and digital marketing can no longer be telling different stories. Or chasing different outcomes. In an interview with Peter Crosby and Rob Gonzalez of the Digital Shelf Institute, Sonesh Shah, Vice President Marketing and Digital at Bosch Power Tools explains how he merged these functions for better customer experiences and better results.

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Transcript

Peter

So Sonesh, you had been at Dremel and Bosch for well over a decade, and I have one very important question for you. Based on that, the years of experience, how handy are you? Can you actually make anything?

Sonesh

So Dremel and Bosch are manufacturers and on some level we’re suppliers, so, and I can tell you is that I'm very good at making sure all of my neighbors have Dremel and Bosch tools.

Peter

Is it like a lemonade stand or your kids standing outside selling tools.

Sonesh

Yeah but from a personal perspective, I have such an affinity for folks that can work with their hands. I think being in this role and being at the company for so long, I respect level for people that can build things have been really skyrocketed. So I've definitely dabbled at trying to do a few things myself. let's just say a certain parents was very influential in the victory of our, of my child come scout, ...Whatcha ma call it, the Pinewood Derby racing

Peter

And that certain parent was your wife?

Sonesh

Yeah. I think there's a theme here. And the other thing that we, I try to do things with the kids and we, we also built one of those little mini libraries out in the front lawn. I don't know if you've seen those, if you them

Peter

yes, yes. Like where people can swap kind of stuff?

Sonesh

Yeah. So we really enjoyed building that and so, you know, we don't come out of these projects unscathed. We definitely, we definitely enjoy it. It's a, it's a huge part of what I try to give back to the kids. And we have some really handy local neighbors that helped me out every time I'm in a jet.

Peter

Well, I remember I've had the chance to talk to you about, you know, how you feel about your customers, you know, the, the builders that buy your tools and I've heard you speak of the respect that you have for them  and how important it is to, for you to create brand stories that help them in what they do.

Sonesh

I'm in a unique place because I've been, been in a lot of tech and I also work at a power tool company. And a common thread that you see is what it takes to build something, right? So there's a lot of comparisons between building software and building building. and you see a lot of the same levels of respect and folks that can architect something that can design something, that can put their hands together and build something that can go through trial and error,   and have knowledge and deep knowledge about how to start something. And it's very fascinating. And I think one trend that we really see while we see a lot of people in the software industry and kind of less and less people going into the trade, but young folks, you see this really massive shift into these careers where people can build stuff though and a big movement in the trades around how do we get more young people interested in the trade. And a lot of that, surprisingly is, is not so different of a movement that happens in software engineering now and in development where you see a lot of these schools pop up that aren't traditional universities. And, it's the same idea of trade school. And a  and vocational internship. And, I think it's really picking back up and you can make a great career as a, as a trade person, the same way you can make, be a great career suffer developer. So and so interesting way that both worlds come together.

Rob

Yeah. And both, both worlds are actually in the sense that they're building something out of complex parts. They're really similar there. I remember when I was first studying computer science in the late nineties, one of my favorite essays was comparing and contrasting building a major bridge in a city to a software engineering project and all the things that those two things have in common. And these days you see coders, whether it's in Boston or in New York or San Francisco or Chicago or wherever they're located, people that program tend to also be very handy. They also tend to work with their hands in their spare time as much as possible. So the two worlds, two worlds are actually a lot tighter aligned than I think most people appreciate. Really appreciate you taking the, taking the time today to talk to us about your experience at Bosch and in particular the interesting way that the Bosch power tools group has combined digital and branding.

Rob

One of the things, one of the things that we see, I'm going to just start with like a quick story on my side. I was at an Amazon hackathon maybe three years ago and John Denny, who was the head of e-commerce at buy brands got up and told the story and how they did a market mixed model study where they found that Amazon advertising improved sales of buy brands through CVS. And that was a really, really interesting study because it showed that if you're doing, you know, Amazon search advertising, you're actually helping your brands visibility in general wherever they happen to transact. Now at that same time, you, I think right around then Bosch had already made the move where you had combined br and digital under you as one executive. And it was the first time that I had ever seen that in the market. But it seemed to make it make so much sense. So the, the, the first question that I've got for you is how did that happen? How did they, how did the reasoning behind the scenes come to a point where they actually made that move before basically anybody else?

Sonesh

You know, sometimes these things aren’t as well thought through as they may seem. So maybe I'll, as much as I can go behind the curtain, how we got here If you look at it now or if you look at it from the angle that you're talking about, it makes a lot of sense  and kind of where brand marketing has already shifted to, and then for CPG brands, I kind of where they see it going in the competencies you need. Obviously you have a lot of those same competencies. Maybe you developed the new E commerce channel team or in some other areas of your business already. for us it was a little bit more around the idea. our, we felt as though the brand marketing organization needed to really just change, really the change organ around digital. 

Sonesh

It was around how do we just jumpstart it? And I think the leadership team was saying, let's look at our, our, our, our team of our, our next level of talent and let them lend to what do we think can kind of create some chain, I think naturally that migrated towards areas that were already in a lot of change. Right? And so I said, they, I think they just, I don't think they used an actual dark board, but they may well have a good kind of

Rob

A well manufactured dark dartboard.

Peter

And where are you in the center? Or were you somewhere off to the South?

Sonesh

But, and I think when, when they, when we first started talking about it, I can tell you for a fact that why I thought they were doing it or why I would've done it. It was very, very different from some of the reasons they were telling me. All in all, I think the more important story is where we are kind of now   and how that has really come together in an incredibly positive way. and let me, let me start by saying that, you know, it's common in large companies to group things together or for certain executives to let's say, want other things under their control.

Sonesh

And I think especially if you, a new area that's going like e-commerce, it's very easy to say, you know what? I need control of supply chain. I need control of new product development. I need control of marketing, I need control of these things. And it's a very, it's not that atypical of a conversation for eCommerce executives start to have because of all the things that touch it. Yeah. It really wasn't around that, where I think we had the most value. For me, it was around how the team brought a really diverse type of thinking to each other where the real value came. And I'll, I'll explain that with one really good example. the digital team and the eCommerce teams are really struggling with content as all are, right? And they were kind of pointing fingers at the brand Brand marketing team right?

Sonesh

Like: “Hey, you're not producing enough images and not producing enough, you know, conduct. I can go on the website, you're not producing enough that goes in ads, etc. You don't know what you're doing.” It was kind of a lot of finger pointing. and so when the teams merged, as you can imagine, there was a lot of still very, conflicting attitudes towards what was easy to be called as old versus new. But rather it was more of a dichotomy of do we understand what each is trying to do? And this is the real world around silos is the lack of diversity of thinking in each group. So what what you started to find was conversations that would happen and a natural progression for brand marketers to start to think about digital channels that their main channels and for the e-commerce teams to start looking at all the content that was being created. So here's a great example. In the beginning was a lot about “make me content for an eCommerce page, make me content for an email” and now you have brand marketers challenging some of the digital folks saying, “Hey, why wouldn't you put influencer content on our product page” like h. Yeah, right. So a, it's really neat to see the divergence of how diversity of thought actually created culture versus me saying I need to own these things and I'm going to start architecting what needs to go where.

Peter

Yeah, Rob, you often talk about it like a George Clooney and the Nespresso ads and all over billboards and everywhere, but then you go to the product page and it's just a shot of the, of the stack of the box of, of Nespresso kind of

Rob

Front of the Nespresso that the back of the Nespresso at the bottom of the epsresso. Then this out the bottom of an espresso.

Peter

 where's George Clooney?

Rob

Yeah, George. Everyone wants to see George. My gosh. And that's it. That totally makes sense. So the, I hadn't thought about it like that. So if I'm, if I'm putting my shoes… myself in the shoes of a typical e-commerce, owner, like the Amazon rep or the home depot.com rep or whatever, at one at a, at a manufacturer, I'm, I'm mostly focused on listing management. Most of the time I mostly focused on getting my products up and getting them accurate. And that's, that's kind of it. Most of the tools that are out there that the retailers provide don't really help you with conversion optimization. So it's not like you're sitting there and trying to tweak for what's the best possible image  and things like that. but part of that, part of what's missing there is they're not using the product detail pages. They're not using the experiences that they're driving through email and so on and so forth as other touch points to tell the brand story. And so that's the, I had, I had, I honestly, honestly I had thought about the branding teams as being the ones that were more backwards in my mind. But the example that you've got is actually no, they, they have a more forward looking in some ways point of view than some of the e-commerce teams. Cause they're not just operational, they're looking at these as other touchpoints to tell a brand story. And that's, that's a new way of thinking for the ecom teams.

Sonesh

Absolutely. And I mean some of it comes from most brand marketing teams that are at least in my space and have a strong history of doing like in store merchandising, right? And in store like getting, getting them to understand that this is just another piece that is still merchandising. You start to see like the wheels turning in their head like, “Oh yeah, it's another touch point. But it's my most dynamic touch point because I can not just do it for once a year and it doesn't cost me 2000 stores and all this metal.  and you know, fairly traditional signage that I can't change.” and once you get kind of a brand team thinking about the opportunity of a new touch point and a lot of it is also like...that I think comes from top down. So I, I will take credit for stuff like that and say that has to come from the top down.

Sonesh

Sometimes it's a push both teams to think about the other side in a way that they may not recognize it. But I think once you open eyes to that, like a lot of the natural world just starts happening and that's really neat. And, but then you have a different layer of problem is, you know, you have retailers that may not be ready for some of that, right. And trying to follow an Amazon's lead versus trying to chart their own path per se, is something that we see quite often. And when are you willing to kind of take different types of content and put it out there and how are you going to do that? Those are great questions to challenge retailers that because they're also hungry for new ideas. We get, we get to kind of bring that to that level.

Rob

Yeah. And there's so many different points of integration that I think with a lot of companies don't happen. What are the ones that you just mentioned is really interesting. Is that the in store merchandising experiences and the online merchandising experiences and how do you, how do you connect those things and which do you even prioritize in terms of spending money? for a lot of companies right now that's a big conversation. I know that the P&G CMO a couple of weeks ago was onstage saying advertising is dead, you know, and they want to be, they want to be spending less money on advertising and more money in, experiences related to the product, post-sale and so on and so forth. Have you seen, without giving you exact numbers, have you seen a shift in the way that the teams think about and prioritize brand marketing spend versus trade marketing spend or even advertising spend versus experience and support spend and things like that? Since the functions have been merged under the under one leader?

Sonesh

It's a great question. I can tell you that I say about seven years ago, five to seven years ago, I was on this big internal push to, say that organizationally we got to start shifting our dollars. We used to say this a lot from offline to online. That's what we used to say. And you know, after a year or two of like constantly making this, I'm yelling this, do a megaphone and not having anyone disagree with me, I realized that that really wasn't the problem. that the, what it wasn't about offer online as much as it was about what you're saying, which is trade spend versus what we call direct to user spend. Right? So, and this is so much more difficult to shift, it isn't always the choice of the manufacturer. There is a significant cost of doing business with some of the retail partners that are out there and for rightful reasons.

Sonesh

There's a massive amount of scale that comes with some of these retail partners. And our job right now is we've made some progress in making that shift. And I think ultimately, and there's a lot of alignment here between manufacturers and retailers. I mean there's not one retailer out there who's not talking to Brad and saying, get people to come into my store to buy your products. That's all I want from you. Right? And that's what we want as well. And the question is, what's the best way to allocate those funds? Is it to maximize trade spend or is it to maximize your own marketing vehicles to have that happen, right? And to build your br and that mix then you talk about is such an important question for every budget owner in this space. Because if you have full control of that, your job is to really allocate those resources properly.

Sonesh

Now a little bit of insight in terms of how we're thinking about this is we're very fortunate to be executing marketing, in today's day and age because we can create a lot of authentic and organic content without spending a ton of money. And we also have the vehicles by which to get that to our users. Right? And we're not happy with the size of our audience that's direct, but we think that that it's grown in such a significant way. And I'm talking about channels like social, I'm talking about channels like web and email, things that we own and things that we can engage in. And our job right now is to build so much creativity and engagement on that channel. and by default what happens there is we, we show, I don't want to call, I don't want to be somebody just calling return on investment.

Sonesh

We show a high level of engagement and excitement around the br and then we can use various metrics to understand what's happening with that in terms of “Do we see a lift over here, do we feel a lift over there?” And it, at least in one example of the last year, that's given us enough momentum to go back to a retail partner and talk about how to best allocate the mix to go. And in what, in that particular case we took some of those dollars and we shifted it back to our own budget. We'll, we, we're doing direct versus getting into the retail partner and traditional tradesmen. So big victory for us, the net outcome was positive for the retailer as well. But it, it wasn't the easiest, it would not have worked if I just went in and said, “Hey, you want to make this shift?”

Rob

Yeah. And in particular, I got to imagine right now with all the focus on Amazon's advertising engine and the margin that it gives Amazon to play with in particular, that that's a hard conversation to have with any, any retailer. I mean what Walmart and all these guys are trying to, to ramp up their online advertising so that they can capture more of the, the margin coming out of coming out of, their, their supply base. so it's actually, it's, it's also interesting the, the, the investment in the direct relationships. There was, in Boston, there was an investor event about a year ago that was hosted by underscore and there was a panel of three manufacturing CMOs, on the, as one of the events during the day. that was, that was in the, in the main stage. And they were asked the question if you could spend on any one project, if you could drop anything that you're doing and just do one thing, what's the one thing that you would do in every single one of them said something to do with CRM.

Rob

Every single one of them said, we need to own the relationship with the customer directly as much as we possibly can because the data is so important. Whereas in the past, you know, it was just like a side gig for them. You know, you always sold, you sold through Walmart or Home Depot or Lowe's or whomever and you didn't, you had limited direct relationships with the end user. and so you got, you guys are very much taking at least a part of that approach. Seriously where you were. It sounds like you're investing in deeply in a couple specific channels where you're directly engaging with the end users of Bosch products and trying to build those relationships and whatnot. All right. How are you, thinking about that investment as compared to more of the broad based marketing campaigns on, on, television or, or in national retail distribution?

Sonesh

So we, we prioritize that as, let's say it's our number one priority from an energy perspective. If I could break down our marketing team from an energy perspective. Right.

Rob

That's an interesting budgetary.

Peter

Is that a line?

Sonesh

Yeah, number one. Yeah. It made up number one, from a budget perspective, and so let me, let me give you some insight to that. So, you know, at a high level, my team is broken down into, this direct to user  and be a customer, right? There's a lot more to it, but let's just say those are the two main areas where my team operates. And you could break that down into folks that work in a CRM and work with users and work with customers as trade spend. Right? So it's another way to look at it. Yeah. while my money maybe more in trade spend, my people are all more on the users. Yeah.  and it goes back to something I was saying around the opportunity to create content, the opportunity to create organic content, the opportunity to listen to users, to respond to users. That's the big change. And I think that digital has given marketing teams is we know so much more now as long as we're willing to put content out directly to them and content to me use and just obviously a picture of a tool, right? We're talking, you know, we get to be on job sites with the Bosch brand all day long. Right. And the Dremel brand has such an opportunity all the time with makers to really engage from a project perspective as well. And so channels like social things like Instagram are just phenomenally important to our industry, but we feel like that becomes the core of not only how we put information and content out there, but also how we learn more about what it is people want.

Peter

It must also be a differentiator for you. You know, I'm sure in the world of private brands and a lot of competition, those relationships you're creating are, I would imagine our loyalty is that, is that what you're seeing?

Sonesh

We, we, we really believe so. Now the challenge with this and that is very,  when you know, you can dig yourself into like for those in any kind of social media world, like you can dig yourself into these really strange worlds where all you're hearing is people that love you, right? I mean the algorithms are real. And so, one of the things that we worry about also is that as we, put ourselves out there, like then we tend to be in this echo chamber of positivity around Bosch. And so we have to also step out of it and make sure that we're trying to see the world, as maybe a non Bosch person would see it as well. But absolutely, yes, we do see it as a huge opportunity and we've seen a real return on being able to brand building

Peter

 and how, you know, what, what can you tell us about how you are able to incorporate the data coming back, the learnings, the language that you, you hear being used about your products. Do they do, do those learnings make their way back onto the other side of your team? Does it get sort of fed back into what you're saying on retailer channels?

Sonesh

, absolutely. so I'll give you, I can't give you specifics from an example perspective. I can give you a high level example. I think of that, you and the audience with you. We understand, you know, it's not uncommon that, the, the single day deal concept is a fairly large one. And, across retailers, right? Like everyone tries to do their version of deal of the day. And we, at first it was never really asked of us that we kind of promote deals outside of the channels that our retailers already have. And then we started doing it organically a little bit. And to a T every retailer talks about the volume that come from our channel, and how they can measure that. And so it's almost an expectation now in certain cases where if we are going to run some kind of promotion that we are also promoting it on our own channels direct. And that's a huge thing when you're dealing with super large retailers like we are, that they acknowledge our audience and they're acknowledging the fact that our audience plays a role in driving their business. And that's a very, I would not have been able to say that 10 years ago, by any great needs and all I would have had at my disposal was television. and running some kind of random analysis to show that my television ad created value as the retail partner.

Rob

What are the things that's gotta be hard though if I'm thinking about Bosch specifically, but I, this applies to a lot of big companies. I mean, Bosch is, you know, getting pretty close to a hundred billion dollars in revenue. I mean, it's just, it's just a massive company. You guys have several audiences that are pretty distinct, like Dremel as a brand is really targeted at the makers, but then you've got a lot of pro products that are targeted at contractors and they speak different languages, they hang out in different places, they're working in different projects. I got to imagine that the, they're the little clusters of folks in the social media sphere that aggregate are there, they've gotta be different groups. Right? So when you, when you're allocating energy there, you've got to somehow allocate it across different audiences. Right? So do you think about those as different branding exercises entirely or?

Sonesh

I mean, absolutely. We separate our brand marketing team by brand so deeply. so while the boss brand team, definitely has some level of collaboration with the Dremel brand team, they operate holistically and holistically, independently. They may use some of the same toolkit, they may have some areas that are shared, but, there is zero times when a marketer who is, trying to target our professional is also going on in long as it jumbled into that they are 100% centered. And that's for good purpose. I mean, we expect our marketers to be really, really in tune with users and we expect them to be, listening, engaging, and fundamentally understanding, not only the issues but the lingo, the conversation and what it is that on the Bosch side at least what pros are looking to do when they're on various touchpoints.

Sonesh

And we have to know that and we don't really want to have shared teams doing that across brands or even, you know, a more relevant question for us at least like on the Bosch side, is that you have folks that will, let's say, you know, the advanced DIY or we'll call them or someone who works out of their garage or woodwork, right? But generally someone who's and buys their own tool. Versus someone, you know, a construction company is building a 75 story building in downtown Boston. It's a very different type of purchase behavior, very different type of engagement with the brand. It's a B to B sale versus a B to C sale in many ways. And so that's really an area that we're learning now. How do we want to separate the brand activities between how we go to market with, with construction company users and then also with the independence?

Rob

That makes a ton of sense. I mean, when I, if I think about effective marketing, this is, I mean this is, this is just like a truism that everyone's saying these days. So not, not great insight coming here, but the more personal and specific a message can be, the, the more it's gonna land. And with, with social media and with, you know, your array of brands and products, you have a lot of very specific targeted opportunities to connect with people. And it's just, it's a matter of energy deployment as to what you're going to do in which order on which, which teams  and, and who's funding it and whatnot. I mean, I still see a lot of companies that are out there that don't take that level of specificity that aren't really trying to do the, do the hard targeting and that are instead just, you know, shouting a brand message like they've kind of always done, you know what I mean?

Peter

And Sonesh, I'm really interested in understanding the, as you've merged this over the past seven years or whatever it's been the, how has your, to the degree you can share, when you think about sort of the high level ways in which your go to market process and the time it takes and sort of what the collaborations are, what are the shifts that you've seen by the, by virtue of combining these teams?

Sonesh

It's a good question and I can talk a little bit about us and you know, I hope that it, it, it resonates with some of the listeners out there, in various different companies and structuring. But we, our marketing organization at one point was considered more of like an in house agency and they...

Sonesh

At one point we were even like had an internal ticketing system, right? So, you know, someone would go and say: “Hey, I need X created from you.” And they would create it.  and in brand standards and we had a lot of guidelines, they had a lot of approaches around this. So it wasn't a like a factory, but We weren't really driving the brand. And I think it took the idea of the idea of Amazon is such, it's such an interesting thing to, to watch how companies understand it. And I think when we first started on Amazon, we really started to that we can finally influence user choice and if we drove things the way we needed to drive things ourselves, like it was kind of all in our hats maybe for the first time we felt that way as a brand manufacturer. And that creates a certain sense of ego around your abilities, right? Like there's not uncommon that like an Amazon key account manager or like a, the sales person feels like they're the ones driving, right? Like in a different way than maybe a traditional sales person feels like they may be. Cause it takes the, you know, and when you kind of have that and then you have folks that really understand digital really well, but they're also seeing like the direct impact of everything they're doing. “Hey I made this change in the website. And I saw this happened, I sent out, I did these ads on paid search and I saw this happened.” And you start to bring that culture of we're supposed to be driving everything and you started to bring that to a team where they were doing work for others to then impact the market. And I think that was a huge shift about how you as an independent person within a large company can make an impact outside.

Rob

That must change who you hire, right. That must change how you hire. And also I would imagine the attractiveness of Bosch as a place to work for a marketer.

Sonesh

Well, even within the organization, the attractiveness of coming to that team. Yeah. A Bosch, we are in the notorious, in a good way, of putting people onto teams that may not have deserved to be there otherwise. Right. So the resumes may not have said MBA in marketing, you know, classically trained marketer at a CPG company. Okay, come in and be a, you know, a brand manager in Bosch. That would be pretty typical. Whereas we'll say, “Oh, you were in sales? But we really like your attitude. You're ready for Marketing.” And we do that all the time. 

Peter

So much of it is empathy. you know, I, I obviously do marketing every day   and that really, if you can find people who can articulate with the difference that they make and the pains that, that the, the end consumer is feeling in the work that they do, then the rest is kind of process. 

Rob

Well, yeah, but the, the interesting bit about online though, and we're, where actually the that Bosch behavior might be it especially good is the industry is under so much flex right now. I mean this is, this is online, offline, the whole retail environment, the distribution environment, everything, the way that consumers interact with brands and like everything is just so in flux that has specific experience. It's kind of less relevant than it might've been in the past. Right. Cause you kinda, you don't know what the job is going to look like a year from now. So the, the soft skills of, you know, fearlessness, creativity and the ability to fail without it. Like destroying your sense of self and like all of those kinds of softer things matter in a way that they, that they didn't when things were more predictable right? 

Sonesh

And we learned a lot of that from watching companies like yours. To be honest with you guys. Like we, we see that ability in so many startups where you can bring people in with various backgrounds and they all have a certain level of, you know, the attitude they share, the values they share are so common that they can work together regardless and they're willing to accept someone else's idea even though they may not be classically trained in that way. don't get me wrong, we have really good skilled people in certain areas where you just can't live without that. Right? but when it comes to those folks, we have these really cool roles we call storytellers and, um...

Sonesh

And to be a storyteller in our organization, it is a lot about attitudes. It is a lot about how you're willing to understand your user and how you're willing to communicate to them. And it has very little to do with how much you understand about persona building or where you may have understood your ability to do deep research on it on a given topic. But rather about are you willing to put on work boots, get out to job sites, watch, learn, and then come back and say: “Why don't we try this? Why don't we try that?” Exactly what you're saying. But I was like, we have a really strong sense of go ahead and try it. And if it, you know, I would advise any of the listeners to go check out Bosch tools and Instagram feed. You'll see all kinds of weird stuff. I'm not gonna say that there's a necessarily this like perfectly crafted story, but you're gonna see, you're gonna see an evolution of we saw that work, okay, we're going to kind of do that again in a different way. And that one may not have worked as well. Why not? And so one of the key things that we've really owned here across both teams is what we call agile marketing. And you probably seen or heard about this a lot. And we really started to embrace prophecies around, around how we bring agile to life from a marketing perspective. And that's been, really revolutionary for us. 

Rob

Yeah. It's a very different way of operating than, than most of the big companies out there. And, one of the, one of the best lines that encapsulates that, is from, I'm going to quote an employee from Mars corporation says: You want to be directionally right. You don't have to be specifically, right. It’s fine for you to make mistakes today. You just have to be directionally right and everything that you do.  and that's how you grow marketing greatness today.” 

Peter

And that takes leaders, right? I mean, that takes someone like you Sonesh, that gives permission for that and provides the guardrails and lets people loose. And I know that, you know, I remember I first came to, to Salsify, I, the first thing I did was spend the first three weeks on the phone talking to brand manufacturer customers. That's all I did. And what I discovered, and you talked about it earlier and sort of the kinship between the software and the digital worlds. You find out that the aunt, that the people who are running the digital efforts at a lot of these brand manufacturers are those entrepreneurial mindsets. And it does take that courage. And it's not, it's nothing against the, the traditional, brick and mortar processes that have gotten your companies where they, where they are today. It's finding, it's having sort of the courage to, to lean towards that agile way of working because the digital experiences demand it. Right. 

Sonesh

And also I think you have, you know, we're really fortunate in large companies that we have, a wide variety of skill sets. We're constantly going through an evolution of people. We have a lot of resources. And, what's really fascinating for me is that you, you really, right, some of it is just about unleashing it and it sounds very typical or, or almost naive, but that's the hard part. But it is actually very difficult to get people to realize that they can do something different when they have been kind of taught and molded to do things in a certain way and has brought them some level of success   and you can't walk into a new scenario and just proclaim everything's going to now be different, but no one really appreciates that. Rather what it is, is kind of giving them opportunities to you know, it's who you celebrate. It's what you celebrate as a team. It's what you, it's what you Pat people on the back for. And people notice that and it takes some time. But if you're consistent about what it is you're trying to create and you know that, you can start to let that naturally form versus like putting a slide up saying time to be different. We're going to go. We'll see you next week for the team meeting. Let me know what happened. Right. 

Peter: Well, I think celebration is a great way to, to close out the podcast because I do think that so much of innovating in this world does require that ability to stop and say: “Wow! Look at what we've done.” Because it can be so headlong all the time and making changes. You're, you made a fundamental organizational change and you kind of bet the farm on it and it's paying off cause you, you, you count on your people  and that's, that's I think really impressive, you know, whether you're, you know, building a company or you're building, a library outside of your house with your kids. Sonesh, thank you so much for coming on and sharing that journey that you've been on with us. We, we really, it's incredibly valuable to hear it. It's incredibly inspiring and I, and I know it will be valuable for our listeners, so we really appreciate you making the time. 

Sonesh

Happy to be here as always, guys, I think you guys are also thinking quite out of the box by trying new ways to reach folks. And I'm always proud and very curious to what you guys are always up to. Thanks for having me. And I look forward to seeing what's next.